Practice is No Longer for the Self
An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 1

The interview is translated into Chinese and published in Issue 486 of Humanity Magazine (February 2024), in commemoration of the 15^th anniversary of Master Sheng Yen's passing.



 

Q1: After the transmission in 2002, how do you deepen your practice?

A: The practice is something that is one that changes depending upon one's sincerity and realizations. As we begin to practice, we begin to have small realizations as to what the nature of the mind is. And as we begin to practice in this way, we start realizing how precious this Dharma is.

I think what deepens the practice is giving rise to our intrinsic bodhicitta to help others. And I think that's probably the most important thing, is that as we begin to realize mind, we want to share it with others. So that spurs our energy to practice deeper. We no longer practice for the idea of acquiring some understanding for ourselves. But we practice for the purpose of being able to find different examples in the sutras and in the treatises of the masters, including the ancient masters, contemporary masters, and Master Sheng Yen, that we can use to bring people to a better understanding of the Dharma.

When we practice, we practice in a way that we now understand that the true meaning of Chan is beyond words and phrases. This is something that I refer to as the esoteric, the secret meaning that it is in Chan. This is what we want to share with others, is this wonderful, infinite mind. We can only go so far with words and phrases and studying, but we understand that we have to, at some point, let go of that to be able to, as an ancient master said, to jump into the abyss or the void and not have fear to do that. In this samsaric world, this world is full of fear. But when we practice in the correct way, we realize there is no fear here. There are no imaginings. So we begin to practice in a way that we are no longer concerned of any kind of self-realization. We practice in a way to bring others to the Dharma.

One of the first times when I realized this was in the very first retreat, I was with Master Sheng Yen, and it was the very end of the retreat. It was time for sharing. Shifu was there and there was a bowl of M&Ms in front of him. He was just using his finger to play with them rolling the little balls of candy around. Just look at them, so wonderful. But when it came the time for me to talk about how my experience I said, just like these M&Ms on the plate, Shifu, he had so many jewels, so many precious gems. And he gave us, every day he would just give us precious gems and they were ours for the taking. And if we took one from him, there would be five more in front of him. And it was just this way that we could take as many as we wanted.

And this sincerity that he had and this great interest in the suffering of others was what I took from him, those jewels of wanting to share those with others. And I have tried my best in my Dharma career to do that. It is very difficult to be a Dharma heir of such a great master because you always feel that you are so deficient compared to such a great Shifu. But I try my best to deliver sentient beings. And I think that is what the deepness of the practice is, that as we begin to have wisdom, we understand that there is this great, great, infinite compassion that's beyond any compassion that we could have worldly. And to tap into that is such a precious use of this Dharma body. The body will wither away, but we want to perpetuate this Dharma for the next generation and to assure that it is still there. This is where I see that there is a deepening in the practice as one devotes their life to the delivering of sentient beings.


Q2: Have you ever encountered any difficulties in doing so?

A: It is very interesting because you are presenting that which cannot be presented, that which cannot be conceived of. The true Chan is non-conceptual and inconceivable. So how do we begin to present to others this? It requires skillful means to do so. Because if it was in the words, it would be easy to just tell people and then immediately all of their mind diseases would be removed; but it is not that way. So we have to find the skillful means to be able to explain to others where to look. And that is probably the most important thing, is to find out where to look. Once we show them this, then it is up to the student to practice. Of course, everyone has varying abilities. Some students, they are very deep and they have a deep root, so they can pick up very quickly. Others, it takes time for them to be introduced to it. But we nevertheless strive to reach everyone. And I think one of the things that people have said about me is that I leave no one behind. Irregardless of their abilities, we present the Dharma to them.

Now the difficulty is that to teach Buddha Dharma, apart from a samsaric viewpoint, which is very easy. From a samsaric viewpoint means that in this world one can become a very accomplished good human in this world. But in our practice, we understand that this world is a dream. We start from the basics of the Diamond Sutra. And we know that this fleeting world is a phantasm, illusion, a dream. So we cannot base our presentation simply on becoming a good human being. To set a stage for establishing a pure land on earth is an intermediate stage for one to develop a proper environment for the practice. But nevertheless, what is the difficult part is to deliver what is a bitter medicine. This is not easy because it is easy to talk about the Dharma, to make people feel comfortable, to make them feel better about themselves. But to tell them, you are a dream. You do not exist is frightful to people.

But yet, in the Sutra of Demonstration of the Inconceivable State of Buddhahood (文殊師利所說不思議佛境界經), Manjushri presented that to Subhuti, who Subhuti was saying to him, "you are not taking care of the novice in speaking at such a high level." Manjushri said to him, "Suppose Subhuti, if someone is sick, do you prescribe them fine candies and cakes? Or do you give them the bitter astringent medicine?" Subhuti replied, "Of course you have to give them the bitter astringent medicine." And Manjuri said, "So it is with the Dharma."

This is not easy to do. This is the difficulty because people can become uncomfortable to hear that. Even other people have told me, "Gilbert, don't teach so deep." This is a difficulty because I cannot teach other than in the manner in which will deliver sentient beings. To tuck them into sleep, I have no interest to do that. To awaken the Buddha within, this is the interest. So I do not see the people as sentient beings. I see the Buddha within each. This Buddha nature runs in all. But there is no self there. This is difficult to explain to people.

But there are those that are capable of picking this up. And those who practice sincerely make great progress. So this is the difficulty of trying to present things that are not necessarily comfortable for a person to hear, but indeed necessary to awaken the Buddha within them. The self gets in the way. The self thinks that it is this being, but it is not. All the sutras say this. All the ancient Chan masters talk about this. It is hidden in plain sight. But we choose just simply to practice and teach in a different way.

There is the difference between Shengxiu and Huineng, where Shengxiu practiced to take the dust off the mirror. And Huineng, he just said originally, no such thing. And this is our practice. As to Shengxiu, there is nothing wrong with that kind of a practice to develop a platform, such as in the Platform sutra, to practice. But one must understand that the true platform is just mind. Just this mind. Which huineng perpetuated from the other patriarchs before him. This ekayāna (one vehicle/one path), this understanding of just this mind. This is the instant gateway to go through, to pass through. 

The other way is if we practice in a way in which we maintain all of the precepts, the 37 factors of enlightenment, the paramitas, all of that. There is nothing wrong with that. But it is as if there is a great mountain obstructing, and it is walking around the mountain to get to the other side. With Huineng's practice of just mind, one stands before the mountain and with this deep wisdom shatters it. It is this that is the practice.

This is the way we can go around, but ultimately if we get there, the mountain still must be shattered. And so the ancients used to talk about running into an iron wall and not being able to penetrate. Of course, the ego cannot penetrate that. The ego belongs to samsara. But to a practitioner, we see that this is an illusion. And that is important in terms of presenting. 

In terms of the prerequisites for the Dharma heirs, Shifu said one has to have stable morality. One has to have bodhicitta. And one has to have right view. The right view is so precious and has to be presented so people can cultivate it. The right view is from the perception of the Buddha mind. It is different than practicing to polish the mirror. It shatters that mirror. That's where people have fear because the ego, for how many eons, has perpetuated the idea that it is real. And so it is this that the Dharma heirs are charged with, is to present right view.

Right view is simply ekayana, just this mind. So when we talk about that, we talk about it in a way which people say it returns to the one. But in fact, it is where the one returns to! It is beyond conception. So this is where the difficulty is because oftentimes people are resistant to it. You know, they are resistant to that presentation. But to me, I see it as something necessary. And it is clearly what is being presented in the sutras and in the treatises. All the ancient Chan masters just talk about this.


Q3: What expedient means do you use to help the public see their Buddha nature?

A: It's said that there's 84,000 obstructions and 84,000 doors. I use any door, any way I can reach the people. It is why we study the Dharma so diligently, so that we can have at our use all the different types of examples to present to people in accordance with their ability to understand.

I have one student, a very precious student of mine. He did not get anything until I told him, just like sweeping. Every moment, sweep the mind, sweep the mind, sweep the mind. Not to exclude thought, but to see clearly what is arising in mind. He made great progress, very amazing and he has become one of my best students.

So we use whatever expedient means that we can in accordance with their ability. And it is our bodhicitta that touches their bodhicitta to ignite that flame in them that makes the difference. The sincerity is that we do not only cultivate those are of a strong intellectual ability. Sometimes the intellectual ability can prevent people from going further. And sometimes the people with very simple minds can reach incredible realizations simply by the sincerity of their practice. So the expedient means is we have to be sincere to care about all sentient beings, not just humans.

Something very interesting, I do not know if you put this in the article. I do not think so, but I have taught insects the Dharma, and the insects have taught me the Dharma.

Once I was at a retreat at DDRC in New York. It was still being constructed, so there were a lot of openings to the outside. In the summertime, the bugs would come in there, and then in the morning they would be dead. So I was meditating and I saw a bug coming in from the outside. And it was like a big, kind of like an oversized ant, walking right straight to me. I used my mind and said, "Bug, stop!" And it stopped. And I said, "don't come here. You will die. If you look, you will see all of your kind are dead in the morning. It is better for you to go outside to live your life." The bug just looked at me and turned its little head and then turned around and walked out. And as if nature was saying, it is not always as you think you see things.

Another time at DDRC, Shifu invited me to sit with him to do the interviews of the people. I was so happy to sit next to him. While sitting there, he has not called in anybody yet. And all of a sudden, this bug comes, flying into the room. So fast, so quick, and making such a loud noise. And it is flying around. Shifu is just looking at it. And then he says to me, "Gilbert, take the bug outside." I can even barely see it, much less try to catch it. So I tried to catch it for several minutes, just trying to go and get it. Every time I tried to do that, it would move away. I did not even know what kind of a bug it was, because it never stopped in one place. So finally I just gave up and I sat back down. I thought Shifu would call the people in, knowing that I did my best to do it. He said, "Gilbert, if you do not take the bug outside, it will die." So I started chasing the bug around again, and it seemed that there was no way I can get it. Then I said: there has to be another way. Just in that moment when I said so, the bug, it stopped on Shifu's arm rest. It just landed there. And I went, huh? This was the first time I even saw the bug, what it was.

How was I going to do it? If I try to catch it and I miss it, I'll have a smashed bug on there. So then I put my hands together like cupped together, and I just looked at the bug and said, "Please, please jump into my palms. I'll take you to safety." When I finished saying that, the bug flew from his armchair to my palms and landed in my cupped palms. Then they opened the door. I took the bug out. It was a dragonfly, a most beautiful dragonfly with a blue body and gossamer wings, very incredible, beautiful dragonfly. And out it went. 

I went back and I sat down. Shifu didn't say a word about it. He just said, okay, call them the first interviewees. Never said a word about it ever. But it was understood that there was a lesson there of compassion and going beyond what you think is conceivable. It is something that, to me, shows this unlimited compassion that we are capable of, not just for human sentient beings, but for all sentient beings.


 



Related Interviews:

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 1

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 2

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 3