Practice is No Longer for the Self
An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 2

The interview is translated into Chinese and published in Issue 487 of Humanity Magazine (March 2024), in commemoration of the 15^th anniversary of Master Sheng Yen's passing.


 

Q4: Do you apply any specific curriculum or classics when you teach?

A: Sometimes I can change my lecture five minutes before I start. But normally I would prepare, I would say maybe at least five hours before I do a lecture.

Other times I will pick up a sutra, and I will take excerpts of it and present it, whether it's Queen Shrimala's Lion's Roar Sutra (勝鬘師子吼一乘大方便方廣經) or the Uttaratantra Sutra (寶性論), Heart Sutra, Lotus Sutra, Avtamsaka Sutra, different sutras or treatises of the masters. Whatever I think needs to be presented, will be presented. I want them to be able to be exposed to different sutras and different masters.

Maybe people take a look at the Avatamsaka Sutra and say, oh my no, this is too deep. And the first time I looked at it, I could not get past all the names of the Buddhas, because my practice had not matured to be able to understand that. And then later I started seeing how precious it was. Everywhere I see is just nothing but jewels in all of these. How could you not present to others these precious jewels and to give them?
So that is what I do is I pick parts so that people can have an experience of different sutras and different classes of sutras from the Maha-prajnaparamita Sutras all the way to the Tathāgatagarbha Sutras, for instance the Dharma-dharmata-vibhaga (法法性論) a very high level sutra but very wonderful sutra. And I can even present that sutra in a way that people can understand it.

But if I started from the beginning to the end, I would lose everybody because they would get bored trying to understand it. But in little pieces, it's possible. So you become adept presenting the core of the sutra. Now people know something about Vimalakīrti Sutra and how wonderful those sutras like the Vimalakīrti Sutra shows that lay people can even exceed the great disciples of the Buddha, and that women can also have a great realizations. All these are very important because when you present this you have an audience that gets an inspiration and understand that it is relevant to them. So what I tried to do is just get little pieces for people to take a bite-sized piece to taste it and if they like it, they can study it themselves and go into it deeper with that.

One of the things that I think that I am good at is bringing the sutras to life, so I find the incidences in a sutra and put the pictures in the minds of the people as if they are there. For instance, in Vimalakīrti Sutra, Manjushri goes to inquire of Vimalakīrti's illness, I put students in the room to show them what was happening, all the entourage of all the people, how they could fit into his room without any affect of there because using the mind. And bringing all the characters in and showing them and talk as if you are listening to them, and so then they see that, they understand that. In terms of that how they brought in all of these chairs for all of the Bodhisattvas to sit in but Sariputra could not sit on the chair because he was too small. And try to have people picture these things that are very incredible to begin to break down the ideas of this world as to being real.

What I think is very beneficial is that we bring those to life. In any sutra, any treatise, there are three understandings which is a basic, the profound wisdom, and then the esoteric which is not in the words. Those are the three that are there. I try to present them the profound. Those who are capable sometimes can touch the esoteric. They can feel something beyond the words. If we never try to do that, then how can these people have this opportunity? So it is important that we do that and bring along the people because those will be the ones of the next generation. So this is important for me. We cultivate all sentient beings, just like Shifu did. When Shifu was at a retreat, he was always looking at everyone. Who is the possible one to bring about? Who is this person that may start a chapter, or may do this, or may do that? And he gives them attention to encourage them, and so do I.


Q5: The mentor-disciple relationship places a strong emphasis on face-to-face interaction, but nowadays, we are using a lot of online teachings. How do you go about that? How do you understand a student's needs?

A: It gives us a tool that was never there before. If the well-known advisor is patient and sincere, it enables people to have access to someone that they never had before. For instance, I have a mind work forum where people can ask their questions, or they can present their understanding of something, and then they want me to critique it, or other people can critique it, or whatever. But it is the way that people learn. It is very amazing, the technology that is there now. So it gives people an ability to be guided in the right way.

I just had this experience with one student. He would ask a question, and I would say, contemplate. Then he would ask another question. And I would say, you want another cup of slop? Because you haven't contemplated the first one yet. You are thinking that the answer is in, or the solution is in my answer. It is only the finger that is pointing towards the answer. And so then the student understood that there is a difference there. So that, too, is a lesson. Maybe it is a little bit of a hard lesson for the ego, but it is still a lesson to let go of that kind of an idea and to use your sincere investigation, which is important, that we have to present to the students how to investigate.

And then the difficult one is how to contemplate.

Because what is contemplation? When we think of it, it is not really an act of doing anything. If it was an act of doing, it would belong to samsara. But contemplation is the direct experience of mind without the self. And so that is why it is so critical to use contemplation in a meditation setting. 

So we use our awareness and we contemplate the present moment, what is arising, without any discrimination, without any self. With seeing everything that is arising, whether it is random thoughts or thoughts that are coming in, we let them go. The mind is simply resting. And that is important. Too little of that is being taught. But if the people learn these methods, they can progress very, very quickly. By doing that and maintaining awareness of the mind. And we use it by contemplating, not thinking. But the idea of not thinking has nothing to do with eliminating the thoughts. It is just cutting off the illusory ego desires continuation. That is important.

And I also wanted to say something. You were talking about the traditional five hindrances are greed, hatred, sleepiness, restlessness, and doubt. And you said, now the smart phone is the sixth hindrance. I disagree with that. We should not hold responsible vexations to an inanimate object. To me, this phone connects me with all my students. It connects me with the Dharma. I am constantly reading the Dharma from it. I am writing articles. I am writing down comments. Everything. It's a very useful tool for me. I have the access to all of the sutras in the palm of my hand. So it's like a twist on liberation is at the palm of your hand. Liberation is here if you use the cell phone in the right way. It is in the palm of your hand.

Unfortunately, because of people's interest in inconsequential topics, they use the phones to play candy crush, and other little games and to be on TikTok or whatever. But this more represents some societal and cultural failings that we have in terms of directing a proper use of something, a proper use of time. It is just only a reflection of what's happening in the society in that way that is there. People do not call it Smartphone for no reason, it is very smart that you can become smart using it. But it can be a dumb phone, too. The phone itself should not be a crime. The hindrance is lack of attention or lack of care.



Q6: Could you talk about your observation of the American society. How does your teaching respond to such situations?

A: To talk about this, I have to tread very lightly because it can become a social political commentary on the happenings in the United States. And this is also reflective in other countries, in South America and in Europe as well, where there's a lot of conservative thinking. A lot of them that are presenting leadership are advancing one religion over another, in a way which there's an intolerance to it. This intolerance leads not only to an intolerance of religion, but race, creed and color.

The backlash to that which has been happening now is some of these religions have been losing worshippers. Because the people see that the religious leaders are backing people that are inconsistent with what the religion is, of love and compassion. And they're breeding some forms of hate and violence under the guise of religion. This is very dangerous with respect to the culture. What it has done is those people, as they are looking for something, Buddhism appears to be more relevant, more useful in the everyday time.

It's as simple as the Chinese say, you plant a melon seed and you get a melon fruit. It's causes and conditions. When we see things in this way, people begin to understand that more than some kind of a divine design. And especially when it's now being a divine design of intolerance towards people of other sexual persuasions or many different things that come up. That is intolerable to other religions. It's something that we look at the religion. We look at people equally because of causes and conditions. And we do not condemn people. We do not necessarily condone what they are doing, but we understand it. And I think that it is that understanding of Buddhism and patience that become attractive to other people.

And I think that's what Shifu's point was about creating a pure land on earth. This pure land is a place that we can practice with tolerance, patience and concern towards everyone. Wherever there is a sentient being, that is my family. It is my Dharma brother, Dharma sister. This is how we should see things. 



Related Interviews:

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 1

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 2

Practice is No Longer for the Self - An Interview with Gilbert Gutierrez, Part 3